A Veil of Forgetfulness: Its Origins Forgotten
Mormon theology has many different sources. One way of understanding how doctrine is developed is to explore the notion of a veil of forgetfulness. The idea seeks to answer the question of why men and women do not remember premortality. The answer is that a “veil of forgetfulness” was instituted by God so that we may walk by faith, instead of direct knowledge. Where did this idea come from? The Gospel Principles manual presents it as a matter of course, as completely obvious, and yet its origins and history are all but forgotten.
The Gospel Principles manual provides no scriptural references for this idea. There is a reason for this. Simply put, the teaching of a veil covering our former memories from a distant past cannot be traced to any scripture in the Bible, Book of Mormon, or Doctrine and Covenants. The LDS Guide to the Scriptures (published only in non-English editions of the LDS scriptures) explains that the veil refers to a “God-given forgetfulness that blocks people’s memories of the premortal existence” but cannot point to a scripture that explicitly supports this idea.
Joseph Smith and Parting the Veil
On October 25, 1831, during a general conference, Joseph Smith taught, “It is the privilege of every Elder to Speak of the things of God &c, And could we all come together with one heart and one mind in perfect faith the vail might as well be rent to day as next week or any other time and if we will but cleanse ourselves and covenant before God, to serve him, it is our privilege to have an assurence that God will protect us at all times.”1 The Lord would shortly reveal to Joseph that inasmuch as the elders humbled themselves, “the veil shall be rent and you shall see me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.” (D&C 67:10).
The Lectures on Faith, second lecture, taught that no veil separated Adam and Eve from God while in Eden. Yet, “though our first parents were driven out of the garden of Eden, and were even separated from the presence of God by a vail, they still retained a knowledge of his existence, and that sufficiently to move them to call upon him.”2 It wasn’t that Adam and Eve forgot their memories with God, but rather, that the veil separated them from the presence of God.
For Joseph, the veil was not one of forgotten memories but a veil that today separates man from God. “If the veil were rent today,” Joseph preached on April 7, 1844, man would be able to see God as he is. Joseph’s understanding of the veil was temple-centric, and to rent the veil was an allusion to the temple. Furthermore, for Joseph, “passing through the veil” was not a euphemism for death as much as it signified the ordinances of entering into the presence of God.
The notion of the veil that most Latter-day Saints are familiar with (that related to premortal existence) would not be articulated until after Joseph’s death. While Joseph taught the concept of premortality, he focused more on the divine council and callings that those in his life may have received before mortality. His sermons do not evidence a concern with premortal memories.
Brigham Young and Waking up from a Dream
In one of the very first articulations of the veil in reference to premortal memories, Brigham Young spoke July 10, 1853:
“In regard to eternal things, they are all out of sight to them, and will so remain, unless the Lord lifts the curtain. . . . We are short sighted, and deprived of the knowledge which we might have. I might say this is right, without offering any explanation.
“But there are many reasons, and much good sound logic that could be produced, showing why we are thus in the dark touching eternal things. . . .I say, the greatest good that could be produced by the all wise Conductor of the universe to His creature, man, was to do just as He has done-bring him forth on the face of the earth, drawing a vail before his eyes. He has caused us to forget every thing we once knew before our spirits entered within this vail of flesh. For instance, it is like this: when we lie down to sleep, our minds are often as bright and active as the mind of an angel, at least they are as active as when our bodies are awake. They will range over the earth, visit distant friends, and, for aught we know, the planets, and accomplish great feats; do that which will enhance our happiness, increase to us every enjoyment of life, and prepare us for celestial glory; but when we wake in the morning, it is all gone from us; we have forgotten it. This illustration will explain in part the nature of the vail which is over the inhabitants of the earth; they have forgotten that they once knew. This is right; were it different, where would be the trial of our faith? In a word, be it so; it is as it should be.”3
Young thus provides one of the main justifications for the veil. That is, despite Joseph’s teaching that the glory of God is intelligence and that a man is saved no faster than he obtains knowledge, Young taught that without forgetting our former knowledge, there would not be a trial of faith for we would know. Thus, God advances man’s agency through a kind of purposeful amnesia.
Parley P. Pratt the Veil between Estates
Parley P. Pratt introduces the idea that while there is a veil between us and the past, the past eternity can be a source of intelligence. Pratt conflates revelation with recollection. Again, while Joseph wanted to pierce the veil, or take it away, to look into the heavens presently, Pratt suggests that memories can be an archive of heavenly knowledge.
“In passing the veil which separates the first and second estates, man becomes unconscious, and on awakening in his second estate, a veil is wisely thrown over all the past. In his mortal tabernacle he remembers not the scenes, the endearing associations, of his first primeval childhood in the heavenly mansions. He therefore commences anew in the lessons of experience, in order to start on a level with the new born tabernacle, and to redevelop his intellectual faculties in a progressive series, which keep pace with the development of the organs and faculties of the outward tabernacle. During his progress in the flesh, the Holy Spirit may gradually awaken his faculties; and in a dream or vision, or by the spirit of prophecy, reveal, or rather awaken the memory to a partial vision, or to a dim and half defined recollection of the intelligence of past. He sees in part, and he knows in part; but never while tabernacled in mortal flesh will he fully awaken to the intelligence of his former estate. It surpasses his comprehension, is unspeakable and even unlawful to be uttered.”4
Note that Pratt borrows language from Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:12 (“know in part”). Pratt read Paul’s account of the man who “was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter” (2 Corinthians 12:4) and in an important way, elevates our premortal existence to that of paradisaical realms.
Orson Hyde and the Forgotten Country
In October 6, 1859, in contrast to Young’s dream analogy, Orson Hyde invokes a travelers metaphor. He describes coming to mortality in a language of mission, with a conflicted sense of duty and reluctance. Here too, Hyde explains that the veil cannot completely suppress our memories of the past.
“We all acknowledge that we had an existence before we were born into this world. How long before we took our departure from the realms of bliss to find tabernacles in flesh is unknown to us. Suffice it to say that we were sent here. We came willingly: the requirement of our heavenly Father and our anxiety to take bodies brought us here. We might be sent on a mission to some foreign country, and feel under obligation to go, not only from respect to the moral condition of the people to whom we are sent, but also out of respect to the authority which required the service at our hands. But if we were to consult our own feelings, and be allowed our choice to go or stay with equal approval, we might prefer to remain at home. . . . The vail is thick between us and the country whence we came. We cannot see clearly-we cannot clearly comprehend-we have forgotten! For instance, when we leave our homes on earth for a long time, and roam abroad in foreign lands, we forget many of the little incidents of our nativity, barely recollecting and being impressed that we have a home in some far-off country, while in other the thought is entirely obliterated from their memory, and is to them as though such things had never existed. But our forgetfulness cannot alter the facts.”5
Hyde is most likely speaking from experience since in 1841, eighteen years earlier, he made what then would have been a long and arduous journey to Jerusalem and from the Mount of Olives dedicated the land unto the Lord.
Orson Pratt and Renewing Friendships
Perhaps in no other sermon has the notion of heavenly recollection been expounded more poignantly and beautifully, filled with as much promise and hope, as that given by Orson Pratt in 1872. Orson Pratt also begins a tradition of pondering the the veil’s effect on Christ’s mortal sojourn, a line of thought that will be continued by Talmage.
“Now admit, as the Latter-day Saints do, that we had a previous existence, and that when we die we shall return to God and our former habitation, where we shall behold the face of our Father, and the question immediately arises, shall we have our memories so increased by the Spirit of the living God that we shall ever remember our previous existence? I think we shall. Jesus seems to have gained this even here in this world, otherwise he would not have prayed, saying, “Father, glorify thou me with that glory which I had with thee before the world was,” showing plainly that he had obtained by revelation a knowledge from his Father of something about the glory that he had before the world was. This being the case with Jesus, why not his younger brethren also obtain this information by revelation? And when we do return back into the presence of our Father, will we not there also have our memories so quickened that we will remember his face, having dwelt in his presence for thousands of years? It will not be like going to visit strangers that we have never seen before. Is not this a comfort to persons who expect to depart this life, like all the rest of the human family? They have a consolation that they are going not among strangers, not to a being whose face they never saw, but to one whom they will recognize, and will remember, having dwelt with him for ages before the world was. Looking upon it in the light of reason, independent of revelation, if a person were to form a system of religion according to the best light that he had, would it not be more happifying and calculated more in its nature to give joy and peace to the mind to suppose that we were going back to a personage we were well acquainted with, rather than to one we had no idea of? I think I should prefer, so far as reason is concerned, to be well acquainted with people I am going among.
These are the expectations of the Latter-day Saints: we do not expect to go among strangers. When we get back there we expect this place to be familiar to us, and when we meet this, that and the other one of all the human family that have been here on the earth, we shall recognize them as those with whom we have dwelt thousands of years in the presence of our Father and God. This renewing of old friendships and acquaintances, and again enjoying all the glory we once possessed, will be a great satisfaction to all who are privileged to do so.”6
Orson F. Whitney and Memory Recall
Orson F. Whitney touches on the question as to when, if ever, we may get our former memories back. He explains that the time will come when we will recall everything. Like Parley P. Pratt, Whitney also links the veil of forgetfulness to Paul’s language in 1 Corinthians, weaving together many scriptures from the Doctrine and Covenants (for example D&C 76: 94 “see as they are seen, and know as they are known”). It is here that Whitney actually uses the set phrase “veil of forgetfulness” for the first time in our brief survey (April 19, 1885).
“We are placed in this world measurably in the dark. We no longer see our Father face to face. While it is true that we once did; that we once stood in His presence, seeing as we are seen, knowing, according to our intelligence, as we are known; the curtain has dropped, we have changed our abode, we have taken upon ourselves flesh; the vail of forgetfulness intervenes between this life and that, and we are left, as Paul expresses it, to “see through a glass darkly,” to “know in part and to prophesy in part;” to see only to a limited extent, the end from the beginning. We do not comprehend things in their fullness. But we have the promise, if we will receive and live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God, wisely using the intelligence, the opportunities, the advantages, and the possessions which He continually bestows upon us-the time will come, in the eternal course of events, when our minds will be cleared from every cloud, the past will recur to memory, the future will be an open vision, and we will behold things as they are, and the past, present and future will be one eternal day, as it is in the eyes of God our Father, who knows neither past, present or future; whose course is one eternal round; who creates, who saves, redeems and glorifies the workmanship of His hands, in which He Himself is glorified.”7
Talmage and The Veil of Forgetfulness
Like Parley P. Pratt, Jame E. Talmage tells the story of two veils: one that veils our former memories, and one that veils us from the hereafter. This second veil, however, has nothing to do with memories, but rather can only be understood to prevent us from peering into the spirit world. Yet, Talmage notes that the veil at times can be lifted.
“A veil of forgetfulness has fallen between us and the past, effectively hiding from view and shutting out from recollection the scenes of our primeval childhood, even as another veil hangs between us and the hereafter. Sometimes, perhaps as the hour of death approaches, a glimpse of the glorious future is permitted, even before the spirit has left its mortal tenement; so, too, at times, in blessed moments of sacred communion and holy thought, half memories of the past steal into our souls. As a European writer has declared, one seems to hear and feel the melody of songs which once he sang, but for which now he can find neither words nor music fit.”8
Like Orson Pratt, Talmage inquires into the effect the veil had on Jesus in his mortality. Where Orson Pratt reflected on Christ’s mortal experience to understand how it must be possible for the veil to be lifted, Talmage understands the veil to have facilitated the Christ child’s growth on earth.
“In such simplicity is the normal, natural development of the Boy Jesus made clear. He came among men to experience all the natural conditions of mortality; He was born as truly a dependent, helpless babe as is any other child; His infancy was in all common features as the infancy of others; His boyhood was actual boyhood, His development was as necessary and as real as that of all children. Over His mind had fallen the veil of forgetfulness common to all who are born to earth, by which the remembrance of primeval existence is shut off. The Child grew, and with growth there came to Him expansion of mind, development of faculties, and progression in power and understanding. His advancement was from one grace to another, not from gracelessness to grace; from good to greater good, not from evil to good, from favor with God to greater favor, not from estrangement because of sin to reconciliation through repentance and propitiation.”9
While this application of the veil to Jesus may seem strange to those outside the Latter-day Saint tradition, it reflects the Mormon understanding that Jesus really did experience mortality as one of us. Yet, Talmage balances this teaching with a reverence that in some ways His advancement was unique and different from ours and appropriate to the Son of God.
When We Will Remember Everything?
Since Brigham Young, the main justification for the veil has been that it is necessary in order for man to fully exercise his agency and growth. Neal A. Maxwell, who perhaps more than any other modern apostle has written and spoken more frequently about the veil, takes the premise to its logical conclusion and reasons that if we are still required to exercise agency in the hereafter, then the veil will not be removed in the next life, but must continue in some respects. He writes:
“The veil of forgetfulness of the first estate apparently will not be suddenly, automatically, and totally removed at the time of our temporal death. This veil, a condition of our entire second estate, is associated with and is part of our time of mortal trial, testing, proving, and overcoming by faith- and thus will continue in some key respects into the spirit world.” (emphasis added).10
Concluding Thoughts
From Joseph’s temple language of parting veils and seeing God today, to veils that separate us from the spirit world but may thin at certain moments, to articulations of veils that equate recollection with revelation, there have been many analogies used to explain the veils, what they are and what they mean to us today.
Joseph speaks of veils functioning as in the holy of holies, separating us from the presence of God (space), while others speak of the veil separating us from the past (time). Merging the doctrine with agency, Young saw the veil as an important part of human progression and learning, yet, depending on certain conditions, Latter-day Saints speak of the veil as “thin” meaning that we can nearly pierce the veil and either catch glimpses of eternities past and remember lessons and even friendships. The “Veil of Forgetfulness” has been couched in language such as waking up from a dream, being on a long journey in a foreign land far from home, and remembering familiar melodies.
The veil of forgetfulness comes out of Latter-day Saints thinking and reflecting on their human situations and experiences and the doctrine of preexistence left to them by Joseph Smith. This brief treatment can only scratch the surface of the rich tradition of Latter-day Saints pondering the veil and the former life.
Notes
1. Donald Q. Cannon and Lyndon W. Cook, eds., Far West Record: Minutes of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1830-1844. (Deseret Book Co., 1983), p. 20. (original spelling).
2. Lectures on Faith 2:12-25.
3. Brigham Young, July 10, 1853, Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, p.352
4. Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology (London: L.D.Saints’ Book Depot, 1855), p.51-52.
5. Orson Hyde, October 6, 1859, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7:, p.315
6. Orson Pratt, December 15, 1872, Journal of Discourses, vol. 15, p.250.
7. Orson F. Whitney, Tabernacle address given Sunday Afternoon, April 19, 1885. Journal of Discourses, vol. 26, p.194.
8. James E. Talmage, Improvement Era, 1905.
9. James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ: A Study of the Messiah and His Mission According to the Holy Scriptures Both Ancient and Modern (The Deseret News, 1915), pp. 111-112.
10. Maxwell, Neal A. The Promise of Discipleship. (Deseret Book Company, 2001), p. 111.
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sideblog – delicious
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- Organizing the Doctrine and Covenants Lessons: Or, Why the Topical Approach Doesn’t Work
- Doctrine & Covenants in 2013: Introduction
- Studying the Doctrines of the Gospel in the D&C; and Church History this year by Jeffrey Marsh: A response
- The Pedagogy of Sunday School (part 1)
- The Burden of Church History and its implications for Mormon History
- Relief Society Lesson: The Life and Ministry of Lorenzo Snow
- How the Early Church Made Peace with Prosperity
- Its a Destructive Life: A Critique of George Bailey
- A Reply to Nate Oman’s Reply to my Reply to His Post on Liberal Mormons and Prophetic Power or Long Live the Bloggernacle
- Another Surreply: Nate Oman responds to critiques
- Mormons and Gays
- Another Liberal Mormon’s Response to Nate Oman
- New Church Website on Same-Sex Attraction Offers Love, Understanding and Hope
- Previewing 2013: A Look Forward to Exciting Books in Mormon History
Another fine production, aquinas.
This is a wonderful look at the history of a theological concept and dovetails beautifully with Givens When Souls Had Wings.
A very nice, sensitively written article.
Nice work. I was reading over the lesson earlier this week and had the same thought about the lack of scriptural citation for the concept of the veil. In my quick glance over scriptures that do use the word, I thought the closest thing to our current concept(s) is the experience of the Brother of Jared, which I surmised was the basis for later extrapolations. But you’ve lain out a much better hypothesis. Thanks.
Thank you everyone for your comments.
Excellent information that is greatly appreciated. This answers many questions that I have had regarding the veil. There are other questions that I have as well: (1) Do the spirits that followed Satan have complete memories of the pre-existence? (2) Will those living in Kingdoms other than the Celestial Kingdom eventually receive complete memory of the pre-existence? If so, given that great knowledge, will it be for their betterment or eternal torment and punishment? (3) How great is the knowledge that we received in the pre-existence? As we know, Christ created the earths without number, probably along with all the righteous spirits to assist Him while He was a spirit Himself. I suspect that the knowledge that we gained in the pre-existence over many years in being the presence of our Heavenly Parents must be vast. (4) At what point in Christ’s earthly life did he gain a full recollection of the pre-existence? It just makes sense to me that He had this knowledge at least just prior to starting His ministry and based upon this knowledge, His great faith and of course His Priesthood power, that He was able to perform easily the greatest of miracles and His own resurrection as well as the Atonement.
Really fun post, thanks! It would be interesting to flesh out some of the circumstances around the various speakers which helped them arrive at the various views. Also, I think you might have undersold Joseph Smith’s possible contribution, but I need to get back to a temple session in order to see, and even then it would be hard to distinguish between what it is now and what was said then.
Thank you. This really answered alot of questions i had during this week, reading a book from Jeffrey R Holland bout the book of mormon and funnily it comes up with the story of the brother of jared and it got me thinking bout the Veil and our premortal existence. My main question was “Did Christ actually go thru the veil” ? if so, how is it that he is able to retain so much information and know so much about his role and mission as it says in the scriptures as you’ve mentioned in your article bout him being restored to that glorifying being that he was before the world was. I know that to some extent we all know that we had a life before this, that we all have our own mission but it just seemed to me like christ never went thru the veil as it knew so much. But this article definitely clears up alot of questions, and i cant help but think as Jesus had to experience all that we had, and yet he was still enabled to be endowed with so much knowledge i cannot help but think that god will do the same for us. That if so needed, he will awaken our deepest memories or knowledge that we’ve stored from the pre-existence! Its such a fascinationg doctrine to explore! Thank you for your insights.
Great summary. A third possible type of veiling (in addition to space/sight and time/memory) is moral discernment. That is, when Adam and Eve were placed in the garden, they lost not only their memory of the premortal life, but also their “knowledge of good and evil,” which they must have had in the premortal life. Upon eating the fruit and leaving the garden, their moral discernment capacities were unveiled (they knew good and evil), but their memories remained veiled. Thus, I think it can be helpful to distinguish this third type of veiling. (Incidentally, since the ability to discriminate good from evil is a function of the Light of Christ, it appears that in the garden, it was the Light of Christ which Adam and Ever were veiled from).
Regarding Christ’s memory having been veiled in mortality, a relevant passage is Philip. 2:7. The Greek word kenosis means to empty out, like dumping the water out of a cup. It makes sense to me that one way Christ emptied himself out when he came to earth was by clearing his memories of the premortal life.
Nathan, I should probably update this post. Once the doctrine of the premortal existence developed more fully, ideas about premortal memory either were seen as solutions or they created problems themselves which required additional solutions. So, for example, Widtsoe argues that Adam and Eve received a mission in the premortal world in order to become the first parents of the human race and propagate the species. Therefore the premortal existence is being used in Widtsoe’s narrative in order to stress the premeditated nature of the fall and enhance the righteousness of Adam and Eve and downplay any perceived disobedience that came with partaking of the forbidden fruit. The idea of a veil of forgetfulness however, works against Widtsoe’s narrative. If Adam and Eve can’t remember their mission and can’t remember accepting it, then that memory cannot serve them as a motivational factor. Yet, if one were to try to resolve this problem by claiming that Adam and Eve had some kind of knowledge or pierced the veil then we run into another problem. That is, the purpose of the veil of forgetfulness is to permit men and women to walk by faith. Often a narrative is told that the veil has a purpose. Thus, what I am arguing is that often the concept of the veil of forgetfulness can cut both ways and we see evidence of this very often in Mormon discussions about the veil. On the one hand, we want to use the concept of premortal existence to make some kind of theological point, but this is undermined by the veil of forgetfulness, which is necessary to make some other theological point.
Very interesting point. I got asked about that once in a missionary discussion by a very perceptive investigator. “How can we be tested on our faithfulness to Heavenly Father when we can’t remember him nor what he wants us to do?” At least she was thinking carefully about what we were saying!
I was going through Orson Pratt’s 1852 discourse, the public announcement of polygamy, in which OP lays out the plan of salvation in one of the first, explicit public descriptions of the pre, mortal, and post-mortal connections. He is using biblical proof-texts to establish premortality and refers to Job where the “sons of God shouted for joy.” He adds:
Do you realize that you and I were there? … Says one, I don’t recollect it. No wonder! for your recollection is taken from you, because you are in a tabernacle that is earthly; and all this is right and necessary.
Here Pratt is tying the veil to the physical tabernacle, as though the mortal body itself is the veil. In order to argue this point he refers to Jesus, as you mention being one of the ways the veil is justified:
The same is written of Jesus Christ himself, who had to descend below all things. Though he had wisdom to assist in the organization of this world…by the assistance of all his younger brethren [ie, us]–yet we find, with all that great and mighty power he possessed, and the great and superior wisdom that was in his bosom, that after all, his judgment had to be taken away; in his humiliation, his reason, his intelligence, his knowledge, and the power that he was formerly in possession of, vanished from him as he entered into the infant tabernacle.
Again, he connects it to the tabernacle. Then, referring it seems to D&C 93 without saying so, OP says Jesus “was obliged to begin down at the lowest principles of knowledge, and ascend upward by degrees, receiving grace for grace, truth for truth, knowledge for knowledge, until he was filled with all the fulness of the Father, and was capable of ruling, governing, and controlling all things, having ascended above all things.”
Then the lynchpin, he adds: “Just so with us.”
Another interesting move in the sermon, OP says there are many gods who participate in the creation of spirits themselves, and his main evidence is D&C 76. He seems to expand on what JS and Sidney Rigdon wrote:
They gazed up on the eternal worlds, and saw things before this world was made. They saw the spiritual creation who were to come forth and take upon themselves bodies; and they saw things as they are to be in the future; and they saw celestial, terrestrial, and telestial worlds…
It seems he is tying the Moses excerpt and BoA to D&C 76, doing some harmonizing here. Was that original to him, or did JS perhaps discuss it off the record? Then he adds this really interesting reading of the text itself, and I’ll just leave it here without further dissection:
“…we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father; that by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created; and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.” Notice this last expression, “the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God,” (meaning the different worlds that have been created and made.) Notice, this does not say, that God, whom we serve and worship, was actually the Father Himself, in His own person, of all these sons and daughters of the different worlds; but they “are begotten sons and daughters unto God;” that is, begotten by those who are made like Him, after His image, and in His likeness; they begat sons and daughters, and begat them unto God, to inhabit these different worlds we have been speaking of. But more of this, if we have time, before we get through.
I believe the veil will be lifted when we die, the scriptures indicates clearly that the mortal life is the probationary time not the spirit world, in that is the case the veil will not be necessary in the spirit world, only in this life. As for those who may think it is unfair because many people will accept the gospel more easily under those conditions, we should be glad that many of our friends, relatives and neighbors will be converted there. God’s work is to save people not to condemn them. There will be a lot of teaching going on and many people will repent and accept baptism, isn’t that great? of course there will still be some who will reject no matter what. The fact that we may remember our pre existence life will not guarantee that we will accept the terms of salvation, we will still have to make choices, remember the pre existance? there was no veil there and all spirits had knowledge of God and still one third of them chose to separate themselves from God. That is my point, I hope it helps.
Fkiese, I appreciate the comment. First of all, the scriptures do not make any mention of the veil of forgetfulness. Therefore, information about the veil, its purposes, or whether it will be lifted, etc., must be inferred from other sources or principles. I agree with you that the Book of Mormon speaks of this life as a probationary state. However, because the Book of Mormon does not speak of the veil at all, it is unclear what the probationary state has to do with the veil of forgetfulness.
So why is there a veil at all? The concept of the veil of forgetfulness is that it seeks to explain why we cannot recollect our former state. Now, Young answers that we cannot recollect our former state because if we did we would not have a trial of faith and we need a trial of faith (But he isn’t answering the question of what happens after we die). In constrast, as BHodges pointed out, Orson Pratt answered that the reason we cannot remember is because we dwell in these earthly tabernacles. Orson Pratt reasoned that the same thing happened to Christ and the same thing happens to us. As you can see from the sermon of Orson Pratt that I quote above, Orson states: “[W]hen we die we shall return to God and our former habitation, where we shall behold the face of our Father, and the question immediately arises, shall we have our memories so increased by the Spirit of the living God that we shall ever remember our previous existence?” Orson then answers: “I think we shall.”
Remember, that Orson doesn’t appear to use the faith argument for the veil. That’s Young’s position, not Orson’s. For Orson, once we no longer have this earthly tabernacle after we die, there is nothing to prevent these memories from coming back. But also, remember that Young never says we don’t get our memories back when we die. Young was only pointing out the reason why we have the veil in this life, he wasn’t answering the question as to whether it would be lifted after death.
Elder Neal A. Maxwell’s position is the one who raises the question that was previously raised by Orson Pratt. His answer, however, is slightly different from Pratt’s:
“The veil of forgetfulness of the first estate apparently will not be suddenly, automatically, and totally removed at the time of our temporal death. This veil, a condition of our entire second estate, is associated with and is part of our time of mortal trial, testing, proving, and overcoming by faith- and thus will continue in some key respects into the spirit world.”
So is Maxwell’s position closer to Young or Pratt? In a way, it’s not Young because Young did not say anything about after we die, but its clearly based upon Young’s rationale for the veil, namely, in order to have a trial of faith. It’s also different from Pratt because Pratt thinks it will be lifted, and Maxwell thinks it will “will continue in some key respects into the spirit world.” Now, Maxwell seems to suggest that in some respects it won’t continue, but he doesn’t elaborate on it. So, given all that, it would seem that your position is more aligned with Pratt’s views than with Maxwell’s.
Well, Orson Pratt’s comment doesn’t talk about how much time passes between death and the veil’s removal, only that “when we die we shall return to God” and then it will happen. There’s much reason to argue that the sojourn in the spirit world precedes seeing God (which happens at the resurrection and judgment). There might be other statements by Orson Pratt which imply the veil is removed at death, but this statement alone can only be taken to say it is removed at some point after death, not necessarily at death, before the resurrection and judgment.
Nathan, I think his language actually does imply the veil is removed at death. Remember, for Orson the cause of the veil is the mortal tabernacle itself. For Orson Pratt, the mortal tabernacle is the veil. So, under Orson’s paradigm it doesn’t make sense to understand death (i.e., removal of the veil) as a separate event from some future removal of the veil at the resurrection or judgment. In other places, Orson quotes language from Alma 40:11:
“Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.”
In a sermon in 1854, Orson cites that verse noting that at death our all our memories return:
“I might refer to the words of many of the Prophets upon this subject, but every person of reflection and observation knows that the imperfection of the tabernacle does have a bearing upon the memory, as well upon other faculties and powers of man. It has been proved that when the skull has been depressed by accident, or in the way of experiment, every particle of the knowledge that the person has possessed has been entirely suspended. Relieving the skull from the pressure, things come fresh again into the mind; this shows that the spirit has not lost its capacity for memory, but it is the organization of the tabernacle that prevents it from remembering. Wait until these mortal bodies are laid in the tomb; when we return home to God who gave us life; then is the time we shall have the most vivid knowledge of all the past acts of our lives during our probationary state; then is the time that we will find that this being we call man—this spirit that dwells within the tabernacle, is a being that has capacity sufficient to retain all its past doings, whether they be good or bad.” (Orson Pratt, October 15, 1854).
For Orson it is only the mortal tabernacle that prevents memory, so after death that memory returns. Even if one were to argue that in this sermon Orson is focusing more on memories of our probationary state and not preexistence state, Orson applies the same logic to the premortal existence in his 1872 sermon.
“[H]ow is it that we have no remembrance of anything that transpired in our pre-existence? I answer this question by saying, that when we came into this world from our former state of existence, and had our spirits enclosed within these mortal tabernacles, it had a tendency to take away our memories so far as the past was concerned. . . . Now admit, as the Latter-day Saints do, that we had a previous existence, and that when we die we shall return to God and our Former habitation, where we shall behold the face of our Father, and the question immediately arises, shall we have our memories so increased by the Spirit of the living God that we shall ever remember our previous existence? I think we shall.” (Orson Pratt, December 15, 1872).
Of course, one could argue that because Orson mentions the idea that our memories would need to be “so increased by the Spirit of the living God that” and that he adds the qualifier “ever remember” that he still isn’t explicitly stating memories of the premortal existence comes back at death. That’s a fair point and seems to still allow for some ambiguity on Orson’s part.